I had a very interesting conversation today at work about poker. There are so many people out there that suggest or truly believe that there isn’t any skill involved in poker…just dumb luck. I invite everyone who believes this to come play a fews sessions of poker at my house, and we’ll see how much skill it takes to win!
I read an interesting article today and I couldn’t give a better argument if I tried, so I’ll just give a few of the main points from the article and let you read the whole thing if you are interested.
The biggest distinction between poker and gambling is that in pretty much all gambling, you are playing against the house.
In poker, the house has no interest in the outcome, and is an impartial provider of services-for-a-fee, a forum for the players to compete equally against each other.
Another major difference between poker and gambling is that the rules of poker accord every player a statistically equal chance to win, but the rules of gambling games all give the house a definite advantage against the player, which over time is inexorable and inevitable. In essence, poker is fair, gambling is not.
Poker is a game of skill. It is a contest of abilities, more akin to bridge or chess than it is to gambling, in that more-talented players will prevail against less-talented players. Chance can and will affect short-term results, but skill separates winners from losers over time.
You?ll never get to play a pickup game against Michael Jordan or a round of golf against Tiger, or tear up the track against Matt Kenseth, but you can plop your buy-in down and take on Doyle Brunson or Howard Lederer.
Nick Momrik 
good question…i think it really depends on a couple of things….first off, if you are an beginning player you will get beat by a more experienced player if you dont watch yourself. Poker is a game of skill, but on the other hand anybody can get the cards. An expert poker player won’t beat a beginner if the beginner is getting good cards. This could be the other side of the arguement, but then again…will the beginner have the guts to call when the expert bets big or goes all in???
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In the short term anyone can win, but in the long run, the player with skills will win every time. Poker is not about a single session, it’s about results over a period of time. Anyone can get a good run of cards and come out ahead in a session, but it takes skill to do this consistently.
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See dawg I always bring the interesting conversations at work. Anyways..
I have to say that both skills and luck kind of mingle together. You can have the best skills in the world and no good luck the result might well be losing; it also works the other way around. But from my limited knowledge about poker, I think you need strategies as well as skills to win. Of course add to that LUCK. To sum it up; You need both to win on consistent bases. BTW I have my own saying to this. ?People that have it call it skills and people that lack it call it luck” By Mo
That’s the quote of the day for ya.
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During a session/sitting, luck can be and is a factor. I’ll agree with that, but we do not pay attention to single sessions in poker, because everyone can and will have an off night. If you have the skills, you will be able to outplay (in the long run) a player who simply relies on luck to win. Think of it as in other sports…you may be able to beat Michael Jordan in a game of one-on-one, but if you play enough games, you will never be ahead in the overall series.
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Well Jere..
poker is also about maximising your winning and minimising your losses.. so a experienced poker player will most definitely muck his hands..and the inexperienced player will probably call you down (because of pot – commitement)
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POKER IS SKILL. Believe me, I didn’t think so at first. BUT NOW I KNOW. YOU GOT TO HAVE DA SKILLZ, SON
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There is an easy way to tell:
If a sport is based on skill, a professional player will always beat an amateur in a full game i.e. you will never beat jordan in a full game of basketball, tiger woods over 18 holes or federer in 5 sets. agreed?
If the game was whoever could get a basketball in from half way, you could beat jordan – because your moving more into the realms of luck than skill (he has a better chance of getting it, but you could get it in first shot…).
This brings me to my point: The ‘main’ or ‘full’ game of poker is no limit texas holdem tourney. A professional play will NOT always beat an amateur player. Therefore for this reason, while I agree skill plays a part in poker I am of the opinion that…
…poker is OVER 50% luck keeping it firmly under the title of ‘gambling’ and not ‘sport’. I am constantly reminded of this whenever an amateur player wins the WSOP (2004 and 2005 i think?) or an absolute beginner busts my all-in pre-flop aces with 72 offsuit.
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I’m sorry, but Poker ist just luck, play some Limit Hold Em and you get Id*ots how call a Board with A-A-K and win with two pair AA-22 or sometig else, yes PURE SKILL!
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If poker were over 50% luck, then it would stand to reason that an amateur would stand as much of a chance of winning the WSOP championship as a professional. Don’t forget that Chris Moneymaker wasn’t exactly an amateur, because he won his seat from an online poker website (which means he was far from being an amateur). If I were to teach the basics to a person who didn’t know how to play Texas Hold’em, I can guarantee you that they wouldn’t stand a chance in hell at the WSOP championships. In fact, we could have 50% of the entrants be true amateurs (of the kind I just described), and 50% be professionals, and the amateurs would not ever win…. ever.
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It’s 90 percent luck and 10 percent playing by the basic rules of the game and some people are born luckier than others. you can lose with a pair of aces to a 7-2 even if you played those aces right. The guy who is lucky will win with the 7-2 when it counts. You could flop a trips and yet he can still win with a gut shot draw or runner runner because he’s lucky. And lucky people just have good timing.
some people are lucky in relationships others lucky in finance, and others lucky in poker or the games of chance.
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That’s an interesting perspective, and I think that it also depends on what the stakes are. I submit that if we are all playing in a play-money game, or micro stakes game, players will take more chances, and therefore get lucky more often. If we are playing in a higher stakes game, or when the low-stakes games get toward the final players, players tend to play more “correctly”. That is, they will “gamble” less, and focus more on playing the odds… which is what poker represents for the serious players. We could all sit down, and play every hand we were dealt; the better hands with better odds would win more often (that’s why they are better hands.) But that would defeat the purpose of betting. Players who depend on luck will not get very far very often. Players that play the odds, and rely on their skill will win much more often over time. That is why I maintain that poker is more about skill than luck.
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Hello all,
Firstly, I wish to state my experience with poker so as to show that I do know what I am talking about. I am 19 years old and have been playing online for a year and a half. I began @ $50 and am now at $7436. I have played over 100 thousand hands (a computer program of mine keeps track of every single one) and as such have quite alot of experience (# of hands is far more important than years). One of my closest friends is 20 years old and is currently going to university. He has been playing poker as his only source of income for over 2 years now. He takes it very seriously and reads/studies it for about 2-3 hours a day. On top of that he plays and gets in roughly 30,000 hands a month. He began with less than $100 and is now over $100,000 bankroll, and is going to FOR SURE make in excess of $120,000 this year.
I can honestly say that poker is a game of skill AND luck. However, that being said, if played over the long term the skill will dominate as it is FAR more prevalent than the luck. I like to think of it in terms of golf… if I were to play Tiger Woods for 18 holes, he would surely win as he is an amazing golfer. However, if I were to play him on one hole I could very well beat him. If it were a par 3 I could fluke out and hit a hole-in-one and thus I would probably beat him as he would most likely not. Does this mean golf isn’t a game of skill because an amateur beat him? Of course not, but poker is very similar to this. I pose this question, if poker is a game of skill, how can the top players consistently make money, year after year after year? Also, above someone mentioned two amateurs players winning the main World Series Of Poker event. They were amateurs only in that they had not played in a big live tournament before, however they knew phenomenal amounts of poker. THe two players are Chris Moneymaker (2004 Champ), and Greg Raymer (2005 Champ). Raymer was in the middle of publishing a book on the subject of poker while in the tournament! One will also notice that the same 50 people or so CONSISTENTLY make it far enough into tournaments to make money.
If one also looks at the top poker players on the circuit, I think you will be quite surprised at the intelligence of the individuals. Surely if it is a game of luck than we would see plenty “average joes” in there. However, MANY poker players were former MASTERS of chess and backgammon, 2 games that I certainly hope everyone feels are games of skill.
If one is unsure whether or not it is a game of luck or skill all they must do is simply read about it just a little bit more. Also, regarding peoples comments on losing with A-A (the best pre-flop hand in Hold’em) against 7-2 (worst preflop hand in Hold’em), that is simply a think called VARIANCE! A-A will lose to 7-2 roughly 12.5% of the time if all money is in pre-flop! While definitely small, it is still a considerable chance! In my opinion, people who think mathematically and in a very logical/mechanical manner, are those who tend to believe that poker is a game of skill. Those perhaps less educated in those areas may perhaps thing it is more luck. I think that is why you will find the majority of pro poker players coming from fields such as engineering, stock brokers, physicists, mathematicians. This is not a word a lie, and if you would just take a second and google perhaps any 5 pro poker players you know of, then just read their previous professions, and I feel you too will find this.
Nice talkin, hope I’ve answered some questions!
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I believe in the 80/20 rule; 20 percent skill, 80 percent luck. Ive been playing poker for just under a year, and i study it very closely. last game i played i hit top 2 pair on the flop, and my friend was just bluffing super agressively. The flop was completely rainbowed(a card of each suit), but he ended up winning most of my money since he got a back door flush. this proves that poker is mostly luck. Even Sammy farha or brunson, chan who are pros at the game would still make the same calls as i did during that hand. There is also some skill in the game, knowing when to fold, and traping an agressive player and what not. I could beat doyle brunson probally 1 out of 5 rounds, but beating mike tyson at boxing would never happen out of 10000 rounds. pokers gambling, not pure skill like boxing or most sports
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In my opinion poker is a game of both skill and luck (gosh! :p) When the skill of the players increases, the luck part decreases. This is due to the fact that skilled players do not wish to gamble. They trust on their skills in order to win the game. A player that is less skilled however, will try to win more by gambling. One example: I am dealt Ace Ace preflop. I know I am not that good of a player to slowplay those aces well. Thus, I try and move all-in preflop. I know I decrease the game to a coinflip this way, but, I also know that the coin is in my favourite (80% or more). When playing with amateurs you will quite often find people betting with much smaller chances. So, they effectively turn the game into a game of chance. Yes, it is actually possible to make it a game of luck if you wish. Amateurs do this all the time. That is why they do often beat the pro’s as they get lucky sometimes.
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Im a very experienced poker player and i can say for a fact that its 50/50 luck and skill. Ive read all the great books harrington, sklansky and many more. First lets look at some basic facts. You cant control what cards you are delt, how can anyone say poker is majority skill when somedays in poker you get delt crap all day and other days you get great cards all day. Second and most important BAD BEATS happen all the time. Third the u.s government declares poker a game of luck not skill feel free to look this up. To the guy above who turned 50 into 7000 and your friend 100 into a 100,000 YOUR A PATHETIC FUCKING LYING LOSER. ITS IMPOSSIBLE TO TURN 100 INTO 100000 GET A LIFE YOU FUCKING LOSER HAHAHAHA.
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Good one! You called their bullshit! Even the most skillfully played poker game (kn0ck p0ker) I would consider to be approx. 45% skill and 55% luck. I have been playing “holDUM” for almost 5 years now and get bad beats almost on a regular basis. This hold’em variant is way overrated.
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ha ha yeah I agree. THere is no way I believe that guy either!
I have been laying poker now for almost 3 years the last year and a half a great deal online. I have won a few local live play tournaments but even still online I only play micro stakes as I have very little money.
Sure overall I have woon a few dollars from these sites more than I have deposited, but no where near as much as I feel my skill and strategy would deserve. Why? Because I almost always start to suck out in the most horrendus ways imagineable, with backdoor flushes beating my set on a rainbow flop and the like. It’s sick the shit thats happened to me online!
I feel far more confident in live play where I feel my Ak that hits the flop will hold up 9 times out of 10 not suck out 90% of the time like it does online!
So that guy above is talking utter drivel. There is no way any site would let you profit like that, no matter how good you think your plays are. I seriously do not trust online poker either and think that in some way it is rigged.
So no f way could anyone depositing that small ammount profit like that. Complete crap! The sites put a limit on how much you can win, that is why so many bad beats start flying against you after a good run. They will just never let you get too far ahead it is as simple as that!
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Well I guess you have not followed Chris Ferguson’s story of him turning a $0 bankroll into $10,000. It took him about 18mths to get to $100 then only another 6mths to get to $10,000.
Why would a web site that takes money from each hand give a sh*t if you won money off other people. The more money you have the higher stakes you will play for which in turn means a bigger rake for the site.
You also state that you don’t get as many bad beat’s when playing a “live” game. This is due to the amount of hands you play in a sitting. the average hands dealt per hour in a “live” game if 45-50 h/hr. When playing online this will change to 90-100 h/hr. This means that you are seeing twice as many hand online than live. If you cop 4 beats in a 5hr session at the casino the odds say that you would 8 bad beats when online.
I have been playing poker socially for around 15yrs but I only get to play around 2hrs per night online and maybe 1 session per mth at a casino but I have kept detailed records of my winnings and losses over the last 5yrs and they have shown me that I have made around 6.3 times as much money then I have invested in this game of SKILL.
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Whoever says that they can make a living playing no limit texas hold’em is obviously lying. If you want to be a great player you have to be a champion at hold’em omaha stud razz pan chinese and all the games pot limit, limit and no limit as well as hi/lo and 8 or better. I can tell you easily who the best all around player is….. in ten years. It is the absolute hardest way to make a living and is like sex, everybody thinks there the best, but most people can’t get the job done.
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Ha, Davis is absolutely right except he meant to say its the hardest way to make an easy living. All pros will tell you the same thing as Davis and I wouldnt be surprised if he is one bcuz hes not pretending hes done a bunch, bcuz he dosnt need to
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Yeh Davis is right, Davis can you teach me the game?
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Davis, you took that out of my book! See you at the WSOP buddy try and get to my 11th.
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Anything beyond knowing the basic rules of the game is luck. Any hand can be cracked, no matter how well you play it. In my opion, any game that involves any luck at all, is all luck. You can get busted from a tournament from a single unlucky hand. No matter how well you played, or how good you are. One unlucky moment, you are gone. If you can get busted from one unlucky hand, then all of poker might as well be considered luck. There are no “lucky” shots in basketball, or “lucky” hits in baseball, etc… All those other sports are based on skill.
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